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13 October 2011

Icons and Irenaeus

I'm still picking away at my reading project in the Early Church Fathers. Much of it is impressive. Parts are edifying, most is instructive, some is unfortunate. (Such as the bits about the phoenix and the unicorn.) I keep an eye open for the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox distinctives, which are essentially absent, at least in the first hundred years, which is about as far as I've gone. But that is enough to depreciate the value of the RC and EO claims that all these things go all the way back. Uh, no, actually, there's no Marian devotion, no prayer to the saints, no purgatory, no indulgences ... these things are later developments and have no claim to demonstrable apostolic tradition.

For instance, I've finally come across a reference to the religious use of icons, which I find in Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, writing in A.D. 180 or so, probably a hundred years after the last apostle died. As you may know, the main work of Irenaeus was to combat the plague of Gnostic heresies, and he begins with a thorough description of the varieties of Gnostic beliefs and practices.
Book 1.25.6 They style themselves Gnostics. They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles.
This is a telling description. Like all of Irenaeus' descriptions, it is conveyed with a tone of ridicule that tilts towards scorn. Can you believe it? They set up *images* and *crown them* and have other modes of *honoring them*, just like the *Gentiles.* You can feel the shock and revulsion.

Of course, if Irenaeus had know of any acceptable and legitimate practice of icon veneration in the catholic church, you would expect him to make a distinction like, "of course the Gnostic practice, repellent as it is, is nothing like our holy and true practice in the church."

So. Claims that icon veneration has early apostolic tradition behind it are very thin at best. And in fact, when an early father did encounter the religious use of images, he cited it as an example of lamentable folly.

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22 Comments:

Blogger Jordan said...

The only evidence that even remotely can point towards any sort of pre-300 icon veneration are churches like the Dura-Europos church in Syria, and even then it's pretty shaky ground. Catholics and Ortho-folk often point to that and paintings on the walls of the Catacombs (~AD 150) as early evidence for the veneration of saints and Mary and all that jazz, but I just can't buy that. It seems like an awkward and anachronistic projection of later practices onto the Early Church that the Early Fathers would have had enormous issue with (evidenced by your Irenaeus passage and others like Lactantius).

October 20, 2011 10:47 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

Old Testament icons.

Talmudic-era icons.

Late second / early third century Jewish and Christian icons at Dura-Europos.

Arian icons.

Do you notice a pattern here?

December 04, 2011 10:36 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

More to the point, an article discussing the exact same passage, but from an Eastern Orthodox perpective.

December 04, 2011 10:40 AM  
Blogger Keith said...

@Lvka: The list of icon instances in your links seems off the point completely. I would never argue either that making pictures is wrong or that nobody ever made pictures.

The EO article on this passage is more to the point. I guess I'm not surprised that today's iconodules have a way of ducking the impact of Irenaeus' words. But forgive me while I'm underwhelmed.

December 05, 2011 2:19 PM  
Blogger Lvka said...

I would never argue either that making pictures is wrong, or that nobody ever made pictures.

Then maybe the problem lies with your perception of Orthodoxy and its understanding of icons, instead of actually lying with Orthodoxy and its understanding of icons?
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The list of icon instances in your links seems off the point completely

That's like saying that comparing children to their parents and grandparents "seems off the point completely"... :-\

Compare the Orthodox iconostasis, for instance, with the veil that was present in both Temples and in the Tabernacle, and was adorned with golden images of Cherubim.

Or the flowery decoratory motifs from the OT Temples and Tabernacle with those that permeate Orthodox Churches.

Both OT Temples had and East-West orientation, as do most Orthodox Churches.

The Altar of the Tabernacle and of both Temples had two tables: one to the East, and one on its left, to the North: the same is true for the altars of Orthodox Churches.

In the OT, the table to the North was used for hosting and blessing Shewbreads: and in the Orthodox Church, it's used for the blessing and hosting of the breads used for Holy Communion.

There are way too many such similarities between Orthodox Churches (and services) and their OT predecessors for you to just affirm that such "links seem off the point completely"...
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The same Irenaeus speaks elsewhere of the Orthodox faith as being a correct image of the King [Christ] and of the Gnostic teachings as being an image of a fox or dog [made of the same mozaic-pieces as that of the King, but differently arranged]:

Now, if images [even correct ones] are a bad thing [as you seem to argue, but say that you don't], then why would Irenaeus make such a blunder as comparing true dogma to icons or images [aka idols] ?

Now, with this in mind, go back to "the impact of Ireneus' words", and see what kind of images he actually does speak about...
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But forgive me while I'm underwhelmed.

Sorry, but I'm not giving you any absolution as long as you continue to interact this way with the evidence. :-)

December 06, 2011 5:47 AM  
Blogger Keith said...

i have heard Orthodox claim ancient example of icon veneration. but i see no evidence in the early church. veneration is a later innovation without early attestation or authority. that's all.

December 06, 2011 10:58 AM  
Blogger Jordan said...

Lvka, It's a huge logical leap from "Jews and early Christians painted pictures" to "Jews and early Christians prayed to pictures of dead people." No one disputes that there were images and artwork in early Christian churches, no one has claimed to the contrary. Considering how openly early Christian writers wrote about the major Christian doctrines and worship practices of their day, if the EO have *really* been static in doctrine and practice for 2000 years like you guys claim constantly, you'd think there would be at least a passing mention of something as integral to your liturgical practice as venerating icons. There isn't. All you see in the early Fathers concerning veneration of icons is ridicule of pagans for doing so.

December 07, 2011 2:54 PM  
Blogger Lvka said...

For the sake of pointing out the absolute obvious:

- in the OT (in the Tabernacle and both Temples) the golden images of Cherubim were sewn on the front-wall, the one the congregation faced during worship.

- in the Dura-Europos synagogue, the images were painted on the western wall (containing the Torah-scroll), which is the wall that the Jewish congregation faces during synagogue-worship.

The same is true of the icon-stand in Orthodox Churches.

Maybe you do not understand what we mean by reverence or veneration?

Either way, let's just conclude for now that under both Covenants the congregation prayed with their faces directed towards walls that were lavishly decorated with sacred images...

December 08, 2011 5:43 AM  
Blogger Keith said...

The seventh council anathematizes all who do not kiss the holy icons. That is innovation, completely unknown in the first centuries of the church. If Irenaeus had been in the habit of kissing holy icons, it is unimaginable that he would have written as he did of this gnostic practice without qualification.

December 08, 2011 9:02 AM  
Blogger Jordan said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

December 08, 2011 11:01 AM  
Blogger Jordan said...

Similarities between placement of icons in EO churches and where the images of Cherubim were sewn are superficial at best. The Jews didn't pray to the cherubim depicted, they didn't claim they were portals to heaven that gushed with uncreated energies, and they didn't claim their images were in the habit of performing miracles. Reading Orthodox icon theology into the Old Testament is eisegesis pure and simple, and Keith is right, it's a practice about which the early Fathers frequently expressed abhorrence without any sort of qualification.

December 08, 2011 11:03 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

they didn't claim their images were in the habit of performing miracles

Pardon ?


The seventh council anathematizes all who do not kiss the holy icons.

I honestly doubt that, because Catholics don't exactly "kiss" icons either, and I wouldn't say that they're "anathema" by the Seventh Ecumenical Synod. (Kissing is a cultural aspect; everybody expresses reverence or respect according to one's own cultural norms..)

Secondly, please remember that Jews themselves kissed, and still kiss, the Torah scroll during synagogue services, which practice still continues today in historic Christianity (ie, the kissing of the Gospel and Apostle after being read from). It's hardly a stretch to say that the kissing of other sacred objects, such as icons, has its origins there.

December 08, 2011 1:52 PM  
Blogger Jordan said...

If you go to the very next verse, it becomes quite clear that God is afflicting the Philistines. I highly doubt anyone other than an EO is going to read that chapter and come away thinking "Oh! Look at all those miracles the cherubim statues performed!"

December 08, 2011 6:48 PM  
Blogger Lvka said...

God is obviously the One Who works miracles through Holy Icons...

December 09, 2011 9:09 AM  
Blogger Keith said...

Jordan, I've lost your antecedent. "The very next verse" ... to what are you referring?

Lvka, I have read the 7th council; evidently you have not. It includes a very clear anathema on all who will not kiss the holy icons.

My position is: everything is reviewable and everything must be brought back to the scripture and re-examined. If there is a case for kissing icons or Torah in scripture, okay. We invite our fathers in the faith to the discussion and are glad to hear the testimony of Tradition. But it is an article of faith among Presbyterians that "councils can and do err." So even the testimony of Tradition and the decrees of the councils are subject to review and correction if necessary.

My charge (which is not mine alone, but shared by a large section of the church) is that the seventh council erred in anathematizing all who will not kiss the holy icons. The point of my comments in the original post here are to bring the witness of one of the early fathers as testimony on this question.

December 09, 2011 9:25 AM  
Blogger Jordan said...

Sorry, I was referring to the passage in 1 Samuel 5 about the statue of Dagon bowing to the Ark that Lvka linked.

December 09, 2011 10:20 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

Are you refering to the fact that the word "proskynesis" means etymologically "kissing-towards" ? Either way, I'd advise against taking the text TOO literally.. :-)

December 09, 2011 2:58 PM  
Blogger Lvka said...

I would never argue either that making pictures is wrong or that nobody ever made pictures.
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No one disputes that there were images and artwork in early Christian churches, no one has claimed to the contrary.
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Similarities between placement of icons in EO churches and where the images of Cherubim were sewn are superficial at best.



With all due respect, you're both trying to evade something here:

The main point of this post was to 'prove' that early Christians (like St. Irenaeus, for instance) couldn't even possibly HAVE icons in the first place(!), let alone venerate them(!): God forbid! And I just showed you [from Scripture and archeology] that not-having-icons was simply not the case...

Now you're both probably trying to divert the discussion into having me provide you with "ancient video-footage" from inside churches and synagogues, which might or might not show Jews & Christians kissing or not kissing icons. Who knows, maybe even the relics of a such a church or synagogue with all its worshippers covered in volcanic ash [similar to those in Naples that were preserved intact by the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius], frozen in the position of bowing gently towards an icon, or -even better!- frozen in the position of kissing a icon!! Or maybe even travelling back in time to see how early Jews & Christians worshipped! [Which things, EVEN if they would EXIST, would still NOT change your stubborn, solipsistic position].

December 10, 2011 3:08 AM  
Blogger Keith said...

Okay, so lets get back on track. I may be stubborn and solipsistic (which I had to look up), but I will try to be reasonable.

I was reading through the early fathers and the first time one of them mentions an icon it is with scorn. As I read it, the scorn comes because the Gnostics are making religious use of the icons and honoring them. I can grant, as you urge, that Irenaeus could have known of pictures in the catacombs, and that he had could have seen pictures in synagogues, and who knows, even maybe in churches. I could agree that making pictures of Bible scenes and stories may have been No Big Deal for him. The Big Deal for him as I read it, was that the Gnostics were honoring these images and crowning them; *using* them in religious worship. As I read Irenaeus, that is where the Gnostics crossed the line and deserved scorn.

Now, I would have expected him to qualify his remarks and say something friendly about the correct use of images in worship if such a thing were know to him as a common and acceptable practice.

So if you have some early examples of the fathers writing in positive terms about icon veneration, I'll be glad to look at it.

But if all you can say is that people made pictures in those days, it doesn't help me with my underlying question. How early, really, does the church begin to venerate icons? That is harder to prove than to prove that they had pictures. It is not clear to me that the presence of pictures establishes a practice of veneration.

By the way, Lvka, thanks for joining the discussion, and I hope you'll stay around. I know more about RC's than I do about EO's because we have so few around here, and some of them I am sure are not representative.

December 10, 2011 11:56 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

Icons are (and have always been) flat, two-dimensional images... you can't even physically "crown" them... (are you alluding here to late Western practices?)

We do use icons in worship... but not "obsessively" so. I imagine the Gnostic worship that Irenaeus is describing to resemble pagan idol-worship, in which the pagan [or Gnostic] priest "obsesses" with one particular idol, then moves on to the next, reciting all sorts of lengthy prayers and invocations before them, even crowning them... as if the image itself is being worshipped.

The only thing that remotely resembles that, in all Orthodox services, is when, at a certain evening service, the Priest reads a couple of prayers in front of the icon of the Virgin (which are addressed to her), and then reads a couple more in front of Christ's icon (which are addressed to Him). We just don't obsess about images, although we *DO* use them. [OK, I realize I'm not being exactly too `technical` here, but that's my gut-impression (again: not really a `technical` term) when reading Irenaues' words].

December 11, 2011 6:32 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

If you really want to see someone actually worshipping icons and saints in a pagan fashion, study the "Santeria". [They actually do think that the Saints ar gods, and that icons are idols, and they also sacrifice (chickens) to them in an idolatrous manner].

December 11, 2011 6:38 AM  
Blogger Lvka said...

And two more things:

1) There are a few Orthodox church-buildings [out of the tens of thousands world-wide] that depict some of the Greek philosophers on the exterior wall (NOT inside the church, and definitely NOT on the iconostasis, along-side Saints and righteous..)

2) Maybe the best comparison with ancient Gnosticism in the modern world are the theosophic and/or masonic societies... inasmuch as all of them share the same basic & characteristic features: abstract philosophy and syncretism. (One day they venerate Jesus, the other day the Buddha, the next Plato, then Mahatma Ghandi and Mother Theresa, then Martin Luther King, etc.)

That would be all...

December 11, 2011 7:02 AM  

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